Some of you might think this comes pretty late or surprising, but while I was reading all the discussions about the +sc -sc routes and the new timer-slide-shortcut I did read some pretty convincing arguments:

Ofc shortcuts are and will be allowed, but can "jumping over the real route" really be considered as "doing the easy or hard way"?

BTW: this is just a poll, this doesn't mean there will be a change in the rule. We are just curious what the majority of the community thinks about this fundamental question.

Very nice idea.
clintmo_longjumper[+sc]/[-sc]

Won't happen, the vote is about banning the sc since it's not even jumping the map, just using the ambiance - not even one single jump - to finish the map.

In my opinion the whole map should be removed.

yes, i totally agree to ban the sc lol, cuz its not like skipping some jumps, it is skipping all map? and i somehow have in mind that somewhere was written that sc's should not skip all map lol. Might be i think so cuz i cant do like 260 cj or something, but even if i could, i think thats kinda not fair, cuz its not like the time mappers spent building ez way etc should be for nothing, that skips just all the map, it really should get removed :>

Then what about other maps that don't take the designed route?

I've voted no.
I don't want the SCs to be removed, everal ways would be better.
There aren't a billion maps with this problem, it shouldn't be a problem and I would really love to see a WR on gigablock, the full map I mean...

That's just an example of course.

It's a difference if an SC skips 30 or 60 % of the designed route or 100%, isn't it?

yes but only because you dont touch any of the ez or hard route thats why it shouldnt be accepted as ez or hard way

I vote yes. Ofc I care much about clintmo_longjumper, I mostly care about tommys map which is soooo good to play it. Well starting [+sc]/[-sc] 'game' is quite risky, because later there should be some kind of problems like "hm.. is this sc big enough for giving map a [sc] way?" But for risk_tommy_back_pls I would vote 100000 times for "yes".
<3 mappers

can you fix the map?

I voted no, because atm there's 2 out of 503 of these maps and i think they make recording a bit more interesting.

I voted Yes.

"No" ofc

Yes!

YES!!!

poor heL^_x

faker this is the crappiest poll i have ever seen, i am sorry. kreedzing is about getting the fastest time which is possible on a map so either list just one route per map or add for clintmo_longjumper a [+sc]-route (same with risk_compound).
ofc "jumping over the real route" means the player used ANOTHER route but this is no reason the ban the route. there is another huge sc which is theoreticle possible and saves minutes on maps like gigablock so do you want to ban this techniques to when they get known?
removing the map seems stupid to me as long as there is no similar BETTER map which would be a good reason for an unapproval.

i voted no... either add a new route or delete all listes routes of all maps (1x route per map so JUST the fastest time possible will get listed as wr... mh when im writing about this... there was just one route for 100metres sprint in beijing wasnt it? why dont you request to add different routes like running straight or running across the whole arena)

Well, that's a pretty crappy argument SchlumPF considering your example.. is.. well.. completely pointless to it. The "SC" should be removed because you aren't even starting the map essentially. The SC is just 2 random jumps on the maps given the easy and hard way names even though they have absolutely nothing to do with the easy and hard ways on the map.

Yes, remove them please, there were some crazy records erased because of this "SC".

SchlumPF that was the most ridicolous comment ever.

You don't know anything about KZ or bugs.

And your comparison to a 100 meter sprint is actually, retarded.

I think this discussion is bigger than it seems. I haven't voted yet, I have to think about it.

For me it's the same question as: should everyone, even the twisted and sick thoughts have the right, to become a democratic party? If no, then it isn't democracy, if yes, then it's just sick!

I will follow this debate close before voting. But I have to say, right now I feel like voting no.
Based on the whole idea behind this site, complete freedom in KZ.
The "over-ruled" system that kzmaps had, was the reason why they closed down. The new thought of "everything that can be done is allowed" that XJ came up with, was on of the reasons for me why KZ became so interesting.

Maybe this debate is only about this map, but I think by saying that one alternative road should be illegal, you are reaching down to the fundament of this site I believe.

But I'll follow this debate and see where it leads. And I hope that most of you jumpers do the same. This could lead to a very important discussion.

I wanna add this. It's the debate about wether kz jumpers should have complete freedom or if there should be some restrictions!

simplicity and nilsen this 100metres sprint example is the point.. its redicolus! i loled too and thought what a crappy idea but thats the same with clintmo_longjumpers. this cj sc is neither the ez nor the ahrd route, it a new route. especially you nilsen show me that i ahd the effect i wanted to have with my crappy comparison

now that this sc got so popular mappers can decide whether they edit the startbutton so sliding is not possible.

hope you understand me simplicity and nilsen ;D the rest of my text is just a fast written (this is why it ahs some mistakes in it but they do not change its meaning!) bunch of arguments and things which went throguh my head while reading the poll...

pls dont blame me

yes... you are not jumping one single jump of risk_compound too...

I agreed yes, because of i think there will be more demos to record with [+sc] and without sc. And more fun to watch demo longer.. Just in my option...

Absolutely YES. My reason: the mappers have made their maps to be jumped and not exlpoited. I (for example) want to see the real record of compound and not a crappy shortcut..

I voted no, and this is coming from someone who 'has' the record on the regular hard way.

The point of having records is to do the map in the fastest time possible, with no cheating, regardless of how the map is done. You don't see valve stopping sales of Half-Life just because some people did it in 31 minutes, do you?

Which also makes me wonder how some people cry about shortcuts in kz and then applaud people beating actual games in like 20 mins, -link- as an example.

I voted no.. Leave the scs like they are, and if you want people to record the normal ways, then add an additional route. I agree the scs doesn't have shit to do with ez and h. But I just find it weird to ban a sc like that, it could still(and it will) get used on public servers etc.

And also a part of me doesn't give a crap about this. Clintmo_longjumper is a really boring map no matter how you look at it. Just another LJ-map.

SCs such as gigablock's jumpbug aren't done on public servers when "random" people play.
Only the WR includes this kind of SC, so I don't see any problem. Just add new ways to maps like compound and gigablock: new WRs, more fun.

Plus, I don't see any problem for mappers, maybe the SC is in the WR but people on public don't play the map this way...

I wish edgebug jumpbug and all those crappy things gets banned forever.

lol alright SchlumPF, if not lol, i was going to say err.. But the main point in this argument comes down to this. Can you have a SC on a map.. without ever actually starting that route on the map and still consider it the WR for that map?

Wow... I don't think it would be allowed, but it feels like it should be. You don't jump the real 'map', but it's still a SC. But I can't see how it fits in any of the ways, tbh Not even touching.

But hey, that's my opinion.

i just wrote about this to show why i think routes are needed... best would be to simply split a few maps, amybe just compound and clitmo_ljers into the old routes and a new +sc route but if this will not happen i see no point for adding additional routes for any map. to quote myself: "this cj sc is neither the ez nor the hard route, it a new route." <- this is what i think should happen

i totally agee with dan and wrath but all you guys forget about the meaning of a wr in time based things... it is all about doing something the fastest so forbiding is uber crap. either add an additional route or leave it as it is.

@silver
eb jb etc... all were things for the "evolution of kz" (dont know how to express me correctly). just to give some rl example (which is a serious example this time ;D): the steamengine was a very very important invention which made humanity evolving. should we forbid it and everything which was invited or possible after its invention? eb lj etc are technqiue which make kz hard because you need to be able to do them all to get many wrs -> being one of the best kreedzers in the world. if we would forbid everything we would end in jumping with spacebar + wasd + sv_air_airmove 0 so nobody can strafe. ok maybe this example is crappy too xD but dont care about this part of my comment... rather focus on the main discussion

I voted No

sry SchlumPF, the arguments in your first post didn't make any sense at all.

--

@all: This poll is NOT about having alternative routes, just read my first posts. You can join the "discussion" about alternative routes in the suggestions forum.

There won't be "different" shortcuts which deserve their own "route", or sc's which don't deserve their own route... that would be totally random and nuts. Also: there won't be any further restrictions regarding shortcuts or new techniques.

This is just a fundamental debate whetere shortcuts which skip 100% of the map should be considered as DOING the actual map or not (and therefore banned).

Afaik there are only 2 maps affected anyway: clintmo_longjumper and risk_compound.

Well personally it isn't the jumper's fault. It's the mappers or the map check team. It's their fault if it gets exploited. I mean what about the axn kreedz maps with 0 seconds? That got exploited too... someone COULD make those maps like kzfr_bhop_aztec and then they would have to do the regular map but then again.. it's the mappers fault.

Either the map gets exploited (scs) or the half-life engine(jb,eb, etc).

i think ill vote yes to let soulftw let him get his record back on clintoljerhard and because those scs are in fact kinda weird.

btw remove the damn 00:00 records as well ffs, those maps are even more useless/ridiculous.

I votet yes, cuz if u can get wr on a map just cuz u can do this one bug, u dont need kreedz skills.. an 8 years old kid who bought cs yesterday could get the wr..

I don't think the shortcut should get banned.. but I think it's silly to have 2 separate records for symmetrical routes. It's the same logic as having 2 records for bkz_forestrace..

i voted yes and tbh i dont even understand why this map is listed in your record section. it looks crap and it's boring. sorry my sister could make such a map after 1 week mapping tutorials... or the 00:00 map wtf?! i dont even bother watching this demo.. just remove such a shit from your section.

well how to say... this map does not fit in your concept imo. look at all the other (legit jumped) records or how hard it is to get the kz tag for his map and then i see clintmoo_longjumper o0 on top of that it's splitted in easy/hard.. the one jumps to the left and the other to the right lol.

a general rule against sc would make problems in details... when is a map skipped 100%? you could get problems with this definition. just remove maps like clintmo longjumper and the 00.00 ones would be best and easiest imo.

I've voted no.

Should you ban the sc @ risk_compound too? Imo the sc skips the whole map...

If you ban risk_compound's big SC, there's still a few big SCs later in the map. Should they be banned too? In my opinion it definitely shouldn't be split. About clintmo_longjumper; It's not the shortcuts fault, it's that the map has several routes, and you can't put this new sc route in any of them, that's why I vote for: easy, hard, extreme, shortcut OR just remove the map. The shortcut way would be either the current easy/hard way, whatever is faster.

banning scs is redicolous. but if map has sc that skips ~100% of mapper built route - this map should be ether fixed or removed imo.

map looses the point what it was built for... or is it fun to watch who makes faster a single big map skip? ok, mby it is a little, but oh well, not to see that map in wr list. for me its much more fun to play some unofficial maps instead of this "bugged" crap

Solution: open for ez and h ways + the fastest of the current scs. It's just the same sc, but in different directions, choose the fastest one.

Well, from what I've read, new ways on maps with big SCs such as gigablock aren't the topic of this poll, but I still keep my choice: NO

A special measure should be taken for risk_compound by the way, and I'm saying this for ages now.

The problem is that the map is split 3 wyas, E, H and X. If it wasn't, the SC would be aloowed imo. But now...

You can really tell if the yare taking the easy or hard way, because they are not in the correct lines, and it's impossible to make that decission...

So, conlcuding...
They have the WR on clintmo_longjumper, not clintmo_longjumper[e], [H] or [X], just clintmo longjumper...

you "Can't" really tell.... dp, s

The surf timer bug has caused only but troubles imo. The WRs don't get more entertaining, more likely the opposite. Doing the sc doesn't really require skill and i bet it's tedious to demo anyway -- in most cases it will probably result in a worse kz perfomance because of nervousness. Like there is a rule to not destroy any breakable objects there should also be a rule for max 250 speed at start.

Exception: AXN maps.

loopah get a very very good point here.

Usually, the SC in clintmo_longjumper would be allowed, such as the risk_compound SC. The task is to beat the map as fast as possible.

BUT: clintmo_longjumper has 3 special routes, so you are forced to take one of these routes, NOT to beat the map as fast as possible. Therfore the shortcuts don't make any sense, because they can't be considered as doing one of the routes.

On risk_compound there is no rule that would forbid that sc, unless we really introduce a new rule that forb ids shortcuts which skip 100% of the map, but that would be a pretty severe restriction. I guess the best thing to do would be to remove the map :/

that is only one map so whats the problem? you gonna make next poll about risk_compound, rpz_downfall... ?

voted for "no"

just as ndR said "alternate routes = more wr's/fun"

just make the map have more alternate routes...

clintmo_longjumper[easy]+sc
clintmo_longjumper[medium]+sc

It would be so nice, if there would be all maps with +sc / -sc, which has "big sc" like gigablock. But then there would be so much maps, that it ain't gonna work I think. I don't mean all maps which has a small sc's should be +sc / -sc, but that maps which has big sc's, u know.

As I said, dunno would it even work, but maps like this, kz_fairy_island, clintmo_longjumper_e/h rpz_downfall, risk_compound etc, where it saves 100% of map, there should be +sc and -sc, Imo.

Make alternate routes...

When the map was made it was impossible to do the 256 jump. I think it's showing the evolution of KZ. It's a part of KZ history.
And removing the 00:00, jb and eb is just nuts. Can't understand peoples hate towards this. We all know that it doesn't get easier. If it did ndR's gigablock wouldn't have been here for such a long time.

Just make [+sc], that's to most logical thing to do, because basicly it's the mappers fault, not the jumper. He shouldn't be punished by have his record removed imo.

kz_man_alienbase has this problem too.

@faker

sry sry sry xDDD read your comment again and your right, shame on me (i feel very stupid right now :X)

i think i wrote in some comment that this is not the the ez/h route like you said in your first post which means (imo) it should be handled like this = new route. even if it is not the fastest way i see no argument which is strong enough to approve banning this sc/jump w/e. furthermore special maprules should be included in the map itself and not on some website.
like many other said it the mappers fault so scary is absolutly right ("He shouldn't be punished by have his record removed imo.").

A rule for alternate ways could be written like that:

" A [+sc] way is allowed on a map in order to record it ONLY if the SC skips more than ~50% of the map.
Only admins are able to judge or not if a map is under this rule. "

Don't you think it's a good idea?

clintmo_longjumper sc is xtreme not many can do it !!!!
heL^_x did 0008 who else can do that ?
Let the sc on.



rpz_downfall should get the shortcut banned cuz everyone can do it.
I don't understand u faker.

Voted NO!!
If you are going to remove the sc, you must remove the sc of risk_compound, too! It's the same, because as in clintmo_longjumper, you don't jump even 1 block of the real map that is made to be jumped, so if you are going to restrict this sc you should restrict some other maps too. You think I'm voting NO because I can cj, but no, I don't - i can't cj even 250, and I still think there should be a freedom for jumpers to get throught the fastest way the map can be done.

DLx not many ?
take a look at LJ records...there are not even the half of the guys who can pwn 256 cj -.-

@ndR
Yes i think!

theres a simple solution to this... just remove all maps that are under ~20 sec and you wont have any headache... those demos are too short and probably unbeatable so they're useless since its just a matter of who does them first which doesnt require a lot of skill.. and ull never have to decide which SC to allow again (if the map is over 20 sec then its ok). ive always thought that records over 1 min are "real" since you know for sure that that person has skill so i dont see any reason to keep those 5 sec demos.. its also sad that there are some amazing unofficial maps that have about 4 min of fun jumps and are not getting accepted because of stupid lil things while the 5 sec maps are still here wasting bandwidth... just a suggestion

I've read almost all of the comments and I don't understand something. Okey, it's nice to see the fastest time, but don't you wanna see the fastest time ON THE MAP? What's the point of showing super-uber CJ skills and skipping the main part? About compound, there should be AT LEAST an other route. What's the point of doing such map and then using a bug in it for getting ~10 seconds? The point of the KZ map is to make the main route, going trough the levels and getting to the end and using compound's sc you don't even make 1 REAL jump on the map -> start - making the sc - pressing stop. If such map was submitted, w/o the other part, just the SC it wont be accepted right?

SkerdikaS: No, it is not the same. risk_compound is a normal climbmap, the task is to get to the end of the map as fast as possible.

clintmo_longjumper is not a normal jumpmap, it has 3 routes you have to take. If the map would have ONE record only, the the SC would be legal and make sense, too. But the task is NOT to do the map as fast as possible, it's to do one of the routes, isn't it?

BUT: Doing the shortcut is NOT doing the easy or the hard way, it's just doing the map as fast as possible by using the map's ambience.

This is a very big difference.

And again: The +sc -sc stuff won't happen, this is just pointless and would be against the fundamental rules of XJ. Just check the forum discussion.

As I think of the past when some maps lost their official status, I'm not wondering why it wouldn't happen again. I think that these kind of maps should be seriously removed from the official list cause there is no right and wrong answer and creating alternative routes isn't always the right decision.

Why not ban some of these "dilemma-maps" and therefore keeping it simple since there is always new maps to come.

Funny how I first laughed at Flibos comment but now it really seems that it would be best decision

@nDr... there would conflicts and problems when admins determine if it's 50% or not... compound is just like fairy island or like cathedral where the sc skips most of the map.. I voted no just because it isn't my fault the map was built as crappy as it was.

As with clintmo ljer.. i don't really know the sc so I haven't commented on that.. but i guess it could count if he starts in the medium way?

+1 Supa, determining the 50% would be problematic, especially when there's more of those shortcuts, as gigablock's edgebug shortcut.

Bah I would love to see the original ways in rpz_downfall and kz_man_alienbase :C

if the sc would be restrict, than it should be restrict in all ways...

what i mean with that?
the main point is this "u don't touch any part of the real route"

but couldn't that get abused this way?: -link-

if so, then like i said, completely forbid the sc's in all "variations".


to the poll itselfs, its a hard question, either yes because the sc itself has nothing to do with the "e" or the "h" way, it is like loopah said, the actual sc is just clintmo_longjumper as fast as possible, not e, not h, not x.

but other side also no, because at the time this sc was made, it got decided (at least intern, because i don't think demorelease got made without any intern conversation about this sc, allowed or not allowed) as accepted, therefore many ppl trained it and improved their times to getting wr on this "new, accepted, sc". so it would be really bad luck for the recorders which maybe spent many hours for that.


but in end:
i'm for "yes, banning this sc".
the sc is clintmo_longjumper, not e, not h, not x, just clintmo_longjumper. the map has officially 3 routes, and this 3 routes should be in wr list, actually is only 1 route in wr, the x route. h and e in wr list are from a non-existing route.
to make faults is human, and imo the fault was when the first demo using this sc was sent, to accept it. but now it's the time, to correct this fault. sure, it's always bad to correct something lately and not directly, but making faults is human, so better correct it lately than never




damnit, why my posts everytime got that long? i still not explained it in the long way i first wanted and tried to hold it "short" :-D

NO !!111

imo it should be -e/sc and h/sc but ye i got it, not gonna happen.

I voted YES, cuz I agree that skipping 100% of jumps of the map is just crazy. And talking strate - has absolutely nothing 2 do with the map idea, what makes it look like some trickjump what has nothing 2 do with kreedz world record.

if you had the wr on risk compound you would think differently.. i beat the map the fastest.. it's a wr.. i shouldn't be punished!

I voted NO!

1. You can't "ban" that sc because you accepted the map as an "record-worthy" map for XJ! The only thing you COULD do without making your rules seem pointless is to create a new category like [sc] (but not [sc_h] and [sc_e], that would be stupid).

2. If you don't want those extreme shortcuts you have to remove the map from the record list, or deny maps that allow such uber sc in the first place!

3. About the timer slide and similar "tricks" (like in the icevalley demo):

If i had anything to say here, i would demand every single "preparation" to be in the demo, without the use of hook and checkpoints! Because the rules state that the demos should be recorded on a "clean" installation of CS. One can hardly count all the super-duper extra plugins that display all kind of jump stats and provide other help as "clean"! If you want to make the "timer slide" you have to include the way up in the demo too! No cheating with hook or CP, and if that's too hard for you => don't take that way, easy as that.

hm, apparently i can not edit my previous comment (or i'm just blind? oO)

So, sorry for the double post.

I wanted to add that you had to ban the code room sc in maps like fairyisland too. It's the same thing after all, you skip the holy fucking map ... And btw, it's not really like you have to do NO JUMPS AT ALL! You still have to be quite good to make the jump over the large gap and bhop to the end.

The only real solution would be to remove the maps entirely from the record section and/or demand changes to the map!

just my humble opinion

Well i think you can
1) Remove the map
2) Add a new WR , i mean (Easy) (Hard) (Extreme) (Shorcut)
3) Or the mapper can make a modification of the map

YESSSSSSS!:D

I think SuPa is kinda right too... its unfair to remove wrs now from people who maybe geeked it...
I'm for this alternate routs, I don't know why xj is hating that so much :/ I would agree with ndR's comment, the admin should decide if there will be an additional route.
Is it too much work or why are you declining it this way :/ We are doing it for fun, really everybody, the mapper, the players, the demo watchers would have more fun with that +/- routes ... And we are not talking about 30 new records here... Maybe 5 maps have this kind of problem. and the mapcheck team has to watch out for shortcuts like that (like they do). so that we are only talking about maps that are allready released and exist.
thats my opinion about it...

I think it is unfair to remove the recs, you are too late for that!
But you can try to avoid this in the future, at least don't accept more ways than the fastest one.
It's the mapper's problem (even though it was totally unexpected)

ndr said:
A rule for alternate ways could be written like that:

" A [+sc] way is allowed on a map in order to record it ONLY if the SC skips more than ~50% of the map.
Only admins are able to judge or not if a map is under this rule. "

Don't you think it's a good idea?

I agree



Ontopic :
Add a rule against the clintmo_longjumper SC?

i dont know any map wich got a specific rule
(exept prochallenge_longjump where cj are not allow but the map is not listed for wr )
so if u start add some rule for specific map , some people will want to add rules [[to allow sc , to forbid cj that enable to skip a large part of the map , but this is just an example , u can find many reason to add a specific rule]] for other maps

so i voted no

Supa, risk_compund is another thing....

clintmo_longjumper has 3 given routes.

risk_compound has not different given routes, u (or any other using the compound sc) are finish the map as fast as possible, all shortcuts are allowed, and so on and so on, so everything is ok.


on clintmo_longjumper the actual [e] and [h] way are also "finish THE MAP as fast as possible, all shortcuts are allowed" but they are NOT "finish THE E WAY (H WAY) as fast as possible" and therefore this 2 demos can't be the record for e or h way.

Hmmmm, then the same with kz_rambo_xen...

Mby many can pwn 256 but 0008 i don't think so

allowing that demos as easyway and hardway isnt good. add new tags to that map, who cares if there are much ..

since that's a map with more than one wrs on, its another thing. "kreedzing is about getting the fastest time which is possible on a map" not when there are several ways on a map! that's like doing the [e] way and getting wr on the [h] way etc. i havent voted and i wont :]

imo you should have to start at the timer, ground level

I vote for "NO".

SC is SC.
Allow all, or nothing.
gn8

hope u dont ban or add [sc] to map records. it makes kz more sexie :p clintmo_longjumps is a stupid map.. talking bout kzse_bhopblock, the map is cool but the sc makes it special. im gonna tell my mother my dad my girl my dog my friends to vote no. bye

as supa said, check the maps before releasing them ><

soul's demo is much better than those stupid 256 scs ,i don't care about it's 0008 or 0009,it's just one jump,vote yes