Poll

Would you like XJ to implement new routes for heavily shortened maps by "destroyer shortcuts"? (Map list + explainations in the comments)

  • Yes
  • Votes: 1131 | 74.7%
  • No
  • Votes: 383 | 25.3%

Comments

  • Country: France ndR on 22/06/12 - 15:25:31     Comments: 852     Reply to this    
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  • As you know there are several maps that can be considered as « destroyed » by shortcuts that are most of the time unintentional, we would like your opinion about the idea of implementing new routes for these maps.
    Here is the whole list (which can of course be updated any time):

    bkz_wallblock
    cg_industry
    dg_winterclimb
    kz_1man_understock
    kz_6fd_volcano
    kz_ep_gigablock_b01
    kz_j2s_icevalley
    kz_man_alienbase
    kz_man_deathhill
    kz_man_eznasa ([novehicle])
    kz_man_nasa ([novehicle])
    kz_man_neighbourhood
    kz_man_ultrablock
    kz_northpole_b01
    kz_midnight
    kz_rambo_xen
    kz_space
    kz_space2
    kz_toscana
    kz_wsp_marioland
    kz_wsp_valleyclimb
    risk_compound
    trC_climbgarden
    kzse_bhopblock

    Nothing would happen to the current World Records, we would just modify the current demo names and add new routes based on the [-md]/[+md] system.

    The point of this change is to give a new breathe to the XJ community, allowing everyone to discover and enjoy parts of maps you’ve never seen.

    We are still discussing about the new rules that would imply this change: a general rule or a rule/guideline for every map.

    Thanks for your answers, we are looking for your comments and suggestions!

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  • No!

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  • yes for sure

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  • Its good idea cause this maps are kind of bull sh*ts

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  • I would like to see the reason for voting no, cyclopP

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  • yes. I'd also like to see kz_cargo added to this list.

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  • ohh and kz_faw_cathedral (ez and h versions)

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  • i like the idea since it's not all kinds of sc's....just the "detryoing" ones.

    cg_cupiators without the sc could be boring same as:
    kz_pacman
    j2s_westbl0ck
    and others

    so, lets see how it goes :D

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  • My arguments why I'm against the implementation of this idea and voted no:

    The goal of this site is to have the official record demos (beating the map as fast as possible) and to promote (new) technique that allow you to do so.

    Shortcuts are a part of that, they always were and are/were essential to my fascination in kreedz climbing (searching SCs, trying to learn them and get them into a run was way more interesting and thrilling then to simply follow the normal route).

    If we start making exceptions about shortcuts and give in about allowing extra "records" (no real record anyway as you can beat the map faster, with sc) for that... where do we stop?
    - At times bhops made with mwheel were considered as a cheat/unfair advantage, should we offer "records" for jumps made with space/normal key only, as well?
    - Strafing is actually considered an engine bug by valve, so why don't we offer w-strafe only "records" as well?

    As you see... my examples might be a bit extreme, but it's really hard to outline where to stop and the decisions to allow some SCs on some maps and block them on other maps are really "random" and always walk/fall with admins decisions and discretion (not saying we can't work it out or don't have experienced enough admins to make fair decisions, but it will be impossible to get every user and even every admin on the same page and make them happpy about all these maps and shortcuts).

    However, if the majority wants to go fo it... so be it.

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  • Alright, this is just my personal opinion... faker's reasoning is sound, faster times and record spots are rewarded with creativity in finding new ways to break times and also by refining your skills and striving your perfection, which is a lot of what makes Kreedz great. Outlining what is a "map destroyer" and what isn't will also cause some disagreements among the community.

    However... I personally voted yes. I think it's time for a change, the old ways and dedication to breaking world records will not change amongst the top-skilled player pool, but this change will breathe life into the world records list and garner new interest to old maps with difficult map destroyers. This obviously infringes on our policy to only accept official record demos, but I think invigorating some interest into the game is more important than retaining our old and somewhat dated ideologies.

    IMO, just because we're the official community doesn't mean we can't provide the official record demos as well as things such as [-md] runs.

    I foresee more changes and innovating as well if we want to keep Kreedz relevant. This is the first step.

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  • As I said, one of my earliest ideas I used on my old KZ website. It worked pretty well and I'd really really love to see the day when thus change comes on XJ.

    I'll look through the map list, perhaps I can remember other maps with the same problem.

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  • No, no, no, no, nooooo! Never.

  • Country: Argentina D2B on 22/06/12 - 20:23:51     Comments: 304     Reply to this    
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  • no

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  • I say yes, but i don't think that kz_toscana should be on that list, since it got to many scs.

    I also wonder about gigablock, because after the jb sc there are some more ways you can go, by using edgebugs. Would you ban all no fall damage bugs on [-md] then?

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  • Destroying the legacy and what Kreedz himself had in mind for all of this is not in my plan.

    We are the official community for god sake. Does anyone actually really knows what that means? These kind of changes are very good for a community like cosy-climbing.
    The official community should and needs to stay as clean/clear and simple as possible.

    The slow period we are facing at the moment compared to the previous year/s is not due to the fact that we don't these "routes" implemented. Sure, it will bring back some activity, but until when? Until even these routes will be too inaccesible for everyone, because all the pro players will have that locked up in their trophy corner. By the time that happens, these "routes" will be just some other demos in our list, just so we can have the list bigger.
    It will be just like the old lj list, crowded and uninteresting, because this is what and official community means the best record and not the best recordS.

    To give an example, it's like the olympics would make the 100m track in zigzag and not straight ahead.

    Like a beloved admin previously stated "if we want to keep Kreedz relevant"... well if you want to do that, don't destroy or mock the legacy that has been passed to us.

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  • No.

    1) Records have always been about finishing maps as fast as possible.
    2) Many maps got more than one "destroyer" shortcut, thus making the division process very confusing. kz_1man_understock got 2 huge shortcuts - which one of them would qualify for a different route?
    3) All shortcuts are done using valid techiques and shouldn't be divided into which ones are fair and which are unfair.
    4) XJ needs new maps, not new routes for old maps.

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  • yes its all about the fastest time. but having a map like for instance kz_space ect with a sc like that...... lol u can have 2 sections for a map like that. and it is still all about the fastest time, just the fastest time without a dumb ass sc

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  • remake nailed it

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  • yous do realise they have already done this with fairyisland

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  • Well, apparently the community and the staff have different opinions.

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  • advantages

    + any new workplan would lead to more work, more activity and more admin work. if ur agreein upon to bring back the comm to life, forget about what much work has to be done, appoint new admins if needed, people would love to work.

    + there is nothin wrong to open up new routes, new recorders would be active, and not you pro recorders, i am speaking from the mentality of a regular jumper, its always great to have that feeling
    for a second, think practically, not technically. it gives the community more options to get indulged.

    - even if you forget everything in keeping the sanctity of the site, how could you forget the mapper's concern?


    disadvantages

    - faker's reasoning's are smart, but his examples of "bhops with mwheel" and "strafing with w-strafe" are too much text-bookish. reality doesnt obey these and practically the general people who visit the website for fun doesnt want to get into so much of stern policies. they would love to see more wrs getting released, and would love to try them out too. i am not saying we shouldnt obey them, i am saying its time to do whats right.

    - the problem would be to decide what sc to accept and what not to. this is a problem you cannot avoid.


    ----------------

    sometimes you take some decisions which are not "completely right", but they save something and "should be done".

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  • arguments


    Actually XJ need more than [-md]/[+md] system. What about map like clintmo_longjumper[h-e]_[+256] ?

    We just need more ways and I think it'll be more enjoyable for us "WRholders" and for you "WRviewers"

    When will you understand that XJ need activity and diversity. Just look at Cosy-Climbing. They have a good activity and many demos have more than 1 way.

    So it's a big yes for me but we more ways than ndR's list.

    Like
    clintmo_longjumper[e]_[+256]
    clintmo_longjumper[h]_[+256]
    kzarg_bhopcircuit[+ladder]
    kzarg_bhopcircuit[-ladder]
    kz_ep_gigablock_b01
    kz_ep_gigablock_b01[+eb]
    kz_ep_gigablock_b01[+jb]
    risk_compound[-+md]
    cg_d2block_ez[-+md]

    Many other maps can be added


    I don't really understand faker's reason because we're not talking about deleting a way or something like that. It's just about add ways for more diversity..

    If we only need fastest way (like faker said) kz_man_congo_b01 should be only with the carpet way..

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  • Lolz & CrazZzed:

    These maps (fairy island and congo - amongst others) have different routes (mapper added different routes on purpose, by adding a teleporter or flying carpet) and it just happens that they are different routes and shortcuts at the same time.

    XJ always supported different routes (like in kz_xj_3ways), but until now shortcuts weren't considered as different route

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  • Well as I said before. I don't really understand your reason because we're not talking about deleting a way or something like that. It's just about add ways for more diversity.. It's only a "+" for the community.

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  • I agree with _Lolz's idea of [+eb], [+jb] and more.
    It will only add diversity and create more activity.
    Well said.

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  • [+eb], [+jb] i think this is stupid, like faker said that kz is who faster can climb the map, its gonna be about 100+ maps in thats kinda sucks, its better to get some more map admins, and reliz just new maps

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  • i voted yes, but after thinking more about it , this will just hide the problem of the broken map system. The community complain about new maps but look at the new maps topic.. around 16 votes .. that is bad for a community that have more than 60000 members.

    Probably some maps would be nice to watch a wr with the "right" route but like someone said , it will be too random and overall will change nothing.

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  • Mappers will say YES !! Who wants to work 1month on a beautiful map and fastly getting nailed by a stupid shortcut ?

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  • oh.. interesting and hard poll tbh.. as i said in my community before adding these [+md] or [+sc] or whatever routes: this is maybe an incentive for newcommers to record a "new" map (not new map but a new way, never recorded before).. and at present, this can help XJ get more activity.. i can imagine what are oldschool players thinking about this poll, so is understandable their opinions... i cant really say Yes or No since im not recorder, but if i have to choose, my vote is Yes cuz i love watching demos, and this will bring to XJ new demos.

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  • I've voted YES. Maps like bkz_wallblock or bhopocean are fucked because these kind of shortcuts. Of course, these shortcuts are very hard and example of great creativity by it's explorer.

    Where's the problem having both records without shortcuts and records with destroyer shortcuts? Too much work for Vee? Initiate more admins into the demo checking process. Despite the leaking of FPS Death there are some trustworthy people among the administrators, aren't there.


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  • i voted NO, because a shortcut is not another route to a map.

    but i would really love to watch demos on all of those map without those huge shortcuts.

  • Country: United States zza on 24/06/12 - 22:05:43     Comments: 392     Reply to this    
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  • Mixed feelings but I voted no in the end. I think instead of going through with this you guys should focus on putting out new maps on a regular basis. I think there's too much history on these maps and doing this would devalue the map also..

    Also I think the results are deceiving since most people will just vote yes for the sole reason of having new demos to watch. Might be one of those times where you should just go with the minority.

    Anyway lots of good points raised in here and hopefully you guys think carefully about it despite the overwhelming support of it..

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  • I think these are the two possibilities.

    1. keep it as such

    + release more maps
    + no need of new demo admins
    + sanctity of the site is maintained

    - soon we'll have flame threads on site is dying

    2. add shortcuts and routes

    + activity increases
    + one can see what real demos would have meant
    + no need to accept new maps at a frantic rate
    + regular ppl gets happy

    - more work, demo admins needed
    - shortest time, the term gets obsolete

    Choose what you intend to.

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  • Wow, this topic seems more interesting than I thought. At first I was like "Yes, of course", but after reading through all this I’m really pendant.

    + :I, as someone who has stopped playing quite a while ago, don't watch the new maps’ records. They're not of much interest to me, because I never played them myself. But when one of the oldies gets beaten, esp an epic map like sandblock e.g., I really love to watch the demos to get that “old days feeling”.
    For me that means: If old maps start to get beaten again, it will be quite some fun and more like an "honor" than a "devalue", as pizza said.
    Of course this argument goes more for the old players, less for the new generation.

    - :There is one little problem I see with maps that have "easy destroyers".
    Let's take wallblock or gigablock for example. Your avarage player can't do these sc's in a run and plays the normal route. Only a handful of guys with snappy fingers considers doing them. Thus people know the normal route and will like to watch it.
    But for maps like marioland or valleyclimb: These sc's are really easy and practically everyone is using them in a run. I bet a number of people doesn't even know what the maps real route looks like. In that case I'm afraid no one will be interested in seeing a run over the normal way. Get what I mean?

    cheers

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  • ok, so maybe then xj could also add inovation to lj list like 256_lj_[6strafes]_Pro6strafer xdd

    i disagree to route system
    best man on the map, should be best man on the map

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  • Never noooooooooooo

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  • Well, if we're speaking about maphonor and all that good stuff, my only suggestion would be making a "NoSC" route, to honor the old maps and actually beat them without using any shortcuts, so they are actually played the intended way. As a mapper I personally hate when people find huge shortcuts in my maps. I don't think alot of shortcut routes and stuff is needed, just one without shortcuts involved. We could call it the vanilla-route.

    I personally couldn't care less about +sc, +eb, +256LJ or whatever. Those routes seem incredibly uncalled for.
    Also, as stated previously it is the FASTEST record. Using routes would take alot of credability off the shoulders of the worldrecorders. Cause there could possibly be several routes for one map. And how do you define a route? is it +sc, +eb? And if a new shortcut were discovered, what shortcut would then be considered a "valid" route?

    All in all it seems to be more trouble than being worth it, and I honestly don't think routes would work that well if put into practice.

  • Country: France ndR on 26/06/12 - 11:15:25     Comments: 852     Reply to this    
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  • Everything was explained in my first post and this change would only concern the maps I listed (+ the AXN maps).

    When I talked about "adding new routes", consider this as a "no sc" way and not a real "route": if we take kz_ep_gigablock_b01 as an example, the "no sc" slot would NOT allow edgebug either, you would have to jump each block of the map.

    Once again, why trying to follow a narrow-minded logic when this change would remove nothing, but just add more variety?
    Sometimes you just have to think about the results, not about the logic behind it, especially when this change removes nothing from the current situation.
    We're not the world football league come on, it's just a game, we've got no sponsor, no money, nothing REALLY is involved, and it's not as if we were talking about removing the WRs or anything...

    The vote is rather without further right of appeal anyway, so I guess you can expect this change to happen anytime soon.

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  • kz man congo have [+carpets] and [-carpets]
    and i think those maps deserve the same:
    example:
    kz man alienbase[+spaceship]
    kz man alienbase[-spaceship]

    and kz man nasa and kz man eznasa
    [+spaceship] or [+vecihle] like ndR write in 1st post

    and may be kz rambo xen[+teleport][-teleport]

    for example: kz fairy island +,- secret

    only for those maps,others are ok.
    +,- jb,eb = stupid....

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  • YES because...

    The brilliant creativity and hours of hard work put into shaping it into reality goes to a total waste. The route that the mapper wants the map to be played, the hurdles that he wants the kreedzer to face before reaching the final timer and the satisfaction of creating a map good enough for XJ is totally "destroyed" just because a smarter kreedzer discovers a clever shortcut. The appreciation that the mapper deserves gets lost in the way.

    NO because...

    But at the same time, I do agree with Faker. XJ is the official community and it should hold only the best timings on the map irrespective of using / not using a shorcut. Different routes should have different WR's on the same map but different WR's for using / not using shortcuts should not be implemented.

    Kreedzers who equally put in an equivalent amount of creativity and hard work in discovering a shortcut should also be credited. Plus imagine a hypothetical map for instance that has a scope of just an eb and a jb. This would give rise to at least 4 different WR's on the same map - [+eb,-jb], [+jb,-eb],[+eb,+jb] and [-eb,-jb]. God have mercy on Vee :P

    Suggestions:

    - Leave the existing map WR's as it is. Instead include new maps if you want more diversity / variety and ofc more activity.

    - Mappers should be more careful while making maps so that there hard work doesn't go to waste due to some smart shortcut and the map gets played as he intends it to be.

    - If you still want the existing maps to have multiple WR's, then re-release the maps eliminating (in the map structure itself) the scope of the shortcut.

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  • "The vote is rather without further right of appeal anyway, so I guess you can expect this change to happen anytime soon."

    That's really democratic, I guess.
    chrizZo, since you militate for "democratic rights" on XJ, being against a "dictatorship", I expect you to step on, on this democratic manner ndR just presented.

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  • After thinking about it, I'm gonna say yes.
    The only real negative aspect about this would be that these maps and records on them would lose value. But honestly, they lost value the moment decimal system was implemented and the milisecond race began.

    It was great seeing some of them improved by a full second in the past (at least acording to the ingame timer), but after seeing wallblock beaten by 0.01 I was just like "meh". Besides, people rarely record these maps nowadays after they've been perfected with real time.

    @faker - People would still search for new shortcuts in the future, the maps are also still there for people to record. It's not like this system will completely ban shortcuts from use.. It's just a small amount of maps that were completely destroyed by them. I think this should have been implemented long ago.

    and @CyclopP - I think Kreedz intended for people to explore his maps, as he said a few times, not riding a vehicle off a mountain to the stop timer. I've never actually played some of these maps in full, thanks to the shortcuts. Anyways this all is just my opinion, and I respect yours. :)

    There's also no need for new demo admins, it's not like this will make people upload 100 demos every week, and since the rules are strict about the runs (no shortcuts) the demo-checking part is still the same - See if he goes the right way, check it for cheats and release it (oversimplifying of course).

    It's just as ndR said - "this change would remove nothing, but just add more variety" - so my vote is go for it! :D

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  • I voted No.
    pizza and remake pretty much said it all.

    How can you say that, for exemple, maps like kz_6fd_volcano or bkz_wallblock are considered as destroyed? Just a few guys can actually nail the sc in a run which makes the WR even more special and the demo more interesting to watch imo.
    And most ppl still take the normal route when they play these maps, so theres no need to talk about mappers' honor... seriously, it's not because there's a record with a huge sc on a map that ppl stop playing it.

    keep in mind that WR is about the fastest time on a map.

    if you wanna add some more "variety", just release new maps.


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  • wrote ...
    they lost value the moment decimal system was implemented and the milisecond race began.

    It was great seeing some of them improved by a full second in the past (at least acording to the ingame timer), but after seeing wallblock beaten by 0.01 I was just like "meh". Besides, people rarely record these maps nowadays after they've been perfected with real time.

    @faker - People would still search for new shortcuts in the future, the maps are also still there for people to record. It's not like this system will completely ban shortcuts from use.. It's just a small amount of maps that were completely destroyed by them. I think this should have been implemented long ago.

    and @CyclopP - I think Kreedz intended for people to explore his maps, as he said a few times, not riding a vehicle off a mountain to the stop timer. I've never actually played some of these maps in full, thanks to the shortcuts. Anyways this all is just my opinion, and I respect yours.

    There's also no need for new demo admins, it's not like this will make people upload 100 demos every week, and since the rules are strict about the runs (no shortcuts) the demo-checking part is still the same - See if he goes the right way, check it for cheats and release it (oversimplifying of course).

    It's just as ndR said - "this change would remove nothing, but just add more variety" - so my vote is go for it!


    Couldn't agree more

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  • I voted yes because I see no disadvantage. The arguements I saw against it seems more weird.

    yes for more activity..

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  • Well,you guys all show up to give honest ideas.Those will impress ppls much.
    As a common player and viewer for years,I enjoy watching demos bothwith smart sc and head all the way normally.So why not say yes,the old smart WRs can also be fine.
    And about how to define a sc as a"destoryer",that needs discuss on each map. Luckily there are not so many maps with such problem.

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  • This is a very good discussion.

    How is see it is that XJ has to keep up with up-to-date themes, changes, likings etc... What it simply cannot do is be old fashioned in every which way. Might sound like I'm bitter, but it's not the message I want to send across. I love this community, probably never leave it completely.

    XJ has to evolve with the community, with the mainstream to keep itself alive. I'm not saying adminstration (of which many share the same opinion) should bend over in any way.

    The undeniable fact is that KZ popularity has been in a decrease for quite some time ago. I like to think that I know what kind of idealism started this, could write and essay on it but I'll spare my keyboard.

    XJ which is the start of anything that is KZ, it has to keep up with the community. Sometimes it just feels that this community is between a rock and a hard place, no new thing gets through cause of we're hung up on the old ways. Now I can see it changing, this poll, even this discussion, I've never seen this topic get so much attention.

    The new mapsystem change. Changes are huge and I like to think they're for the better of the community.

    Point:

    Take one for the team. One is probably multiple, but I like to think it's for the better of this community.

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  • I can't believe admins are even considering this bullshit... and 75% in favor? omfg

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  • these comments should be on display before voting..

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  • agree with Gene.
    btw you can add kz_42_amazon, it has that huge shortcut at start which skips half of the map.

  • Country: Romania NeW on 30/06/12 - 12:14:35     Comments: 107     Reply to this    
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  • you're about to do a wrong move here imo, just let them the way kreedz intended to, no need for a change

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  • ofc no.
    xj neednt -+md system

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  • Nope!

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  • "you would have to jump each block of the map"

    Seriously ndR? that sounded awful

    so basically i cant hurry on accomplishing de map because i need to go over every inch of the map? i cant think on a single rule that convers all differnt cases..

    +1 myself

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  • why not? . the actual records wouldnt be modified, its a perfect idea! YEEEEES!

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  • Sry for commenting twice.
    But have to say,PoshitO,you got it wrong.He didnt mean that, dude.He meant you cant skip too much(like a big room or a hill ,smthing like this)with a wierd(smart as well) sc. You can still certainly skip a few more blocks(as posssible) as usual. Well , the question is how to define a too-much skipped sc.That really needs to discussed in terms of every single one.I'd say you guys are facing an arduous mission,which is also worthwhile and to be praised

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  • Big NO, unless you want the record list to look like a damn circus.

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  • Yes1 Gigablock!

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  • recording in kz is a sport nowdays. with rules which should be followed. rules which are in real sports too.
    those real sports records has been followed by rules and if there would have been SCs in those sports the records would have been allowed with SCs. So if you think over, it would be bullshit to had the map twice with the SC to the list.

    XJ is for WRs and so it mean to be as fast as possible on different routes or on one path and if there is a SC or map destroyer on that route/path its on the map[+route] or only map.

    If a map destroyer exist on a map the mapper or the testers of the mapper werent that carefully. So its the fault of them and not XJ to add another entry in the DB for that map destroyer. Clearly the point will go to no.

    Everything is now on speed so the decialtimes has been added but mapdestroyer to be added to the recordlist noway!

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  • Too many people think that XJ or KZ should be something or that KreedZ never envisioned...I mean, who cares? If community wants routes, they should get it.

    No one gave good argument against it, just "I don't like it". Sure, we may want this sc to be allowed and that to be disallowed, but seriously, adding [-md] can be done in parallel to the WRs.

    You can still have WR for a particular map and a separate page for records on a different route. If you don't want to record it, then don't. If you don't want to watch it, then don't.

    But community should grow and it should not become someone's personal pet project. Please consider that adding routes will be just another aspect of XJ, it expands it, adds on it and in no way hurts it (other than adding extra work).

    So my vote is yes.

    P.S. Please stop arguing against the miliseconds, difference between two demos in the old system could still be 1 ms since there are 1000 miliseconds between each seconds.

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  • no no no

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  • will be good if you just do [+sc] [-sc]

  • Country: Lithuania FoF on 07/07/12 - 19:13:31     Comments: 113     Reply to this    
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  • in my personal view, I put a lot I mean A LOT of my time and effort while creating kz_ghat. And it's a bit sad, that half map (under mountain cave) is cut because of stupid slide shortcuts. The problem why that happened is because the mapping team at that time strongly suggested me to avoid 'stupid' teleport solution to avoid such shortcuts, so I had to work around with invisible blocks. And after I submitted kz_ghat I personally asked to deeply check for shortcuts, because such a complex architecture had its drawbacks, but map got through with map-destroying slide shortcuts. That's why I would love to see my map have two routes. And I'm absolutely sure other mappers who maps got destroyed would love to get at least few routes. Thanks :)

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  • The only ones who lose anything here are admins, since they have additional work to do. If you vote no, please explain how this affects negatively you, your playing time, XJ, etc.

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  • Well, what FoF said is the one and only reason I want to see this trend applied.
    I think the problem only concerns the mappers here, as it is their work that got ruined by an unfortunate moment of inattention, and a mistake of the map checking team who failed to spot the shortcuts.

    Moreover, these maps were officially accepted because they had the required aestethical level. That means most of the community (me included) still has a lot of possibly amazing maps to discover, and won't if this md rule is not officialized.

    I'll say yes, I just hope it won't cause too much confusion as to what is and what is not a map destroyer. Shortcuts are the best part of recording, not obliging people to perform very tricky jumps to beat a record might be somehow disappointing after all, so choose your routes VERY, VERY carefully - don't want a possibly great change to become a complete KZ killer.

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  • I don't see why this change shouldn't be added. There are some ideas of "the fastest route should be the only route" but really that idea is already not being taken into effect. Look at maps like dementia +/- tranq. Right now -tranq is at least a minute faster.
    Technically this is the fastest way to beat the map! So does this mean +tranq should be removed?

    I mean, in my opinion, if you strongly feel that the fastest way to beat a map is the only way there should be, then you should also be against alternate routes that are intentionally built into maps, because some of them just slow you down. I mean if your goal is to get from the start timer to the stop timer as fast as possible, then alternate routes, built in or not, have a chance to hinder this goal.

    On the flip side, if you have no problem with alternate routes that are intentionally built in, why would you have a problem with routes that remove shortcuts? It's just another route. Another way to play the same map. What's wrong with that? There are many maps where I will play through using shortcuts and then I will play through them again right after without shortcuts.

    In the end, I'm voting yes because I fit into the 2nd category. Nothing wrong with another route in my opinion. Especially if the route being added is one to force people to play the map the way the mapper actually intended it to be played.

    I think the hardest part is going to be figuring out where to draw the line of what a map breaking shortcut is and what isn't. Since mappers do sometimes intentionally add shortcuts. I just recommend that this be done carefully, if it's done at all.

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  • I voted yes, but after reading comments I would change mind to "YES, but NO!" It's a bit complicated answer as well as the future md routes system. If you want to breathe life in the community and revitalise destroyed maps than simply reconstruct them or in other words just fix short cuts physically (with invisible blocks or whatever), and not by rules. Than make a map release of those original maps with "_md" postfixes as new maps. Done.

  • Country: Lithuania FoF on 09/07/12 - 19:27:12     Comments: 113     Reply to this    
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  • I just got random idea, what about adding checkpoints to maps so map could had different routes with different checkpoints. This would solve question what is "big/small shortcut". I think this shouldn't be very hard to make as an official XJ plug-in so checkpoints could be even visible or smth. Well it's just a way of realizing, but I think this could be very cool solution. Maps with destroy scs could have one route without checkpoints (so they could be done in any freaking way even in 00:00:01) but also they could have another or even more routes with checkpoints :) What you guys think?

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  • That's genious FoF +1!

  • Country: Lithuania FoF on 10/07/12 - 10:04:39     Comments: 113     Reply to this    
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  • Extending this idea, such solution and that kind of plugin (or whatever) should open new type of kz maps: "rush" maps (or whatever you call them). Well to explain this - simply take hide and seek map, place many checkpoints everywhere and player should collect all of them as quickly as he can. The priority of checkpoints are equal, so it's like a little puzzle for a player because you can start calculating quickest ways. And what is beautiful there is that strategic part comes to the kz. I personally think that would be very fun to play :-) Feel free to discuss.

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  • I vote YES, and [+jb] [+eb] for gigablock.

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  • FoF that's very similar idea of the map I've been doing and in which I've lost motivation once again ^^

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  • To add: you called it rush, I called it freerunning :P Different routes, not many kz blocks just _beautiful scenery_ fun obvious bhops and ofc as quickly as possible. Sorry for dp, but you need to add edit here!

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  • @ndR
    u forgot kz_dp_medieval with the stupid sc at the beginning which skips nearly 50% of the map

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  • FoF, sounds awesome, though i have thought about something similar but not really; having like de_nuke start timer in t-base and stop timer in ct-base, THAT ladys and gentlemen would be very fun! :) But FoF's idea would be very fun to play too I think! :)

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  • i agree with kraeft , this is really stupid idea... and i suggest 2man maps record section with new rules ofc it will be good competition and we will see many new 2man maps

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  • I just got random idea, what about adding checkpoints to maps so map could had different routes with different checkpoints. This would solve question what is "big/small shortcut". I think this shouldn't be very hard to make as an official XJ plug-in so checkpoints could be even visible or smth. Well it's just a way of realizing, but I think this could be very cool solution. Maps with destroy scs could have one route without checkpoints (so they could be done in any freaking way even in 00:00:01) but also they could have another or even more routes with checkpoints What you guys think?


    Fresh idea, but pretty complicated as well. Those checkpoints should be placed so freaking carefully and calculated.. Just imagine jumper doing sc than just simply going back till checkpoint, turning 180 degrees and running same blocks but now towards finish. That will be too damn funny to watch. Why not just simply make couple more invisible blocks on ghat and release it as kz_ghat_fix or somewhat?

    1) This will provide jumpers 'new' maps to record.
    2) Which will be followed by 'new' records to watch.
    3) And will keep records system as simple as it is right now.
    4) And also will keep all those jumping servers all around the world straightly oriented at XJ (I mean if you'll implement checkpoint system or even md routes you gonna mess everything up.. because all those jumpers who don't record on LAN but simply do runs on online servers wouldn't be able to do those 'WR's. Well if you'll do kz_ghat_fix and release it it can be simply added to all those servers and ordinary people will do their ordinary records but without those ordinary short cuts.
    5) And finally... The most damn essential thing is that kreedz is not any kind of cs modification by now. It's pure cs as it is but played in different angle. And all those WR runs are possible at clean cs install. And in my fucking serious opinion this is the kreedz as it's meant to be. It's all about default cs settings, game engine and maps.

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  • i will say yes , kkz , FoF and all the reason that everyone said.. well they are right , its kinda frustrating to see a really fun map with lovely jumps and stuff destroyed by a shitty shortcut.. so i will say YES

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  • yes yes! One of my favourite maps trC_climbgarden<3 destroyed by my hated technique slide, FUUUU

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  • first of all,you whould define what is a map destroyer sc. Imo,every shortcut that jumps over 20% of the map is a destroyer,and there should be a wr without it.Let the 15 sec records exist,but show the real record aswell.

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  • bhopblock is the perffect example ! Let the fight for the nowdays milicenonds keeps,but lets make it more interesting and "possible" without that shortcut.Many bhopers could fight for some seconds. Make that fight official,if the "legacy of kreedz" is not a disguise of your own wishes (:

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  • Vote wrong I want to vote No!

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  • Yes. Always been disappointed not being able to see the full maps in world records. Mostly the marioland map.

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  • I know I've been out of the community for a while but hers why I voted no:

    As mentioned before a WR is about beating a map the fastest way possible. Shortcut or not its already been beaten the fastest way. Why would you want a record on the same map that already has a faster time?

    Secondly, you need to consider the list of current world record holders. How many new jumpers will obtain records on some of these maps. It is possible to say that NONE will emerge because of the change. If that is the case then what is the point? If kkz or kayne just RE-BEAT the same map they already had a WR for but 10x slower then what does it really matter?

    It is in my opinion a pointless change. Just more work for demo admins and people that already have WR's. It doesn't enhance the competition but only dilutes it.

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  • After reading the comments (after 1 or 2 months lol) i want to vote no but i can't change it <.<

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  • Fire, you cant generalize rebeating the map in different routes is the same exact run without the SC... Take for example bhopblock, the things you have to do in the current wr has almost no similarities to the run you'd have to do without the sc. It's nowhere near to same wr but 10x slower...

    So many maps got destroyed cause of things that weren't considered possible to perform.

    I cannot comprehend why people say NO to this since this could, for one, be the biggest map release I XJ history. Secondly and the best perk about this is, it brings more activity to the withering KZ scene...


  • Country: Lithuania FoF on 03/09/12 - 16:17:18     Comments: 113     Reply to this    
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  • Fire: all current records will remain. We just add NEW routes which does not contain shortcuts. All these destroyed maps would have 2 world record slots on them. First will stay the same with the idea of beating map in any possible way which is fastest (what is the current WR). And the second will be the new one with some forbidden shortcuts.

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  • Since there were many questions about if we are still going to implement this or why we didn't implement this yet, I wanna lay down the arguments that led to the decision that we are not going to do this:

    - The definition of "map breakers" would always underlay the grade of definition, once you open up the borders there is no way back and it is going to be impossible to find a common ground everybody will agree on about what is a "map breaker" and what is a normal shortcut.

    - In conjunction with the first point, it would be a big problem once another map breaker, that lies between the normal route and the -map breaker route, is found: the old -mapbreaker record would have to be deleted, as it's not possible to segment the records even more (-mapbreaker1 & -mapbreaker2). Deleting demos is, as you can imagine, a very bad thing and we want to avoid this. This would be more obvious for maps like volcano, for other maps it would be way more complicated of course. However, adding extra routes for some maps and don't for others doesn't really seem consistent and fair as well.

    - All these additional routes and record will lead to a higher number of available maps and would be quite "easy" records - as they are basically the same map all over again with a slightly different route. Players who are already good at this map could easily get just another record without too much effort. This would generally decrease the "worth" of every single world record in the list (which is the same reason why we always try to avoid adding too easy and too small maps to the custom map cycle).

    - This is a "lame" point, as this shouldn't be a point or an excuse, but it is still an issue nevertheless: It would cause way more work. Not only for the demo admin(s), which isn't the big factor here, but also the website and recording rules would have to be updated after every map release (and probably even in between). Every map would need specific rules with screenshots about the shortcut classifications and details about the different routes.

    - Last but not least... This rule would go against the very principles this community was built with: all shortcuts are allowed and part of the game. This was always a huge and popular rule of XJ and helped to diversify XJ from other sites (just as kzmaps.co.uk back then, when they had a rule that forbid all SCs that skipped more than 5 jumps).


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