Poll

Should XJ ban cheaters from other communities if SOLID proof is provided? (READ FIRST COMMENT)

  • yes
  • Votes: 234 | 84.78%
  • no
  • Votes: 42 | 15.22%

Comments

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  • 1. by OTHER communities we mean Cosy-Climbing first of all. Other communities will be up for further debating, if they want to.

    2. if it happens, XJ would like for this to be more of a partnership, as in a signed deal with the other party involved, in order for BANNING informations to be exchanged between us.

    3. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE this means XJ will randomly or fully ban cheaters from everywhere. NO!

    Please keep the discussion civilized!

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  • talking about the guy (the cheater), he only deserves ban if he submits a cheated demo (obviously).. if the guy chetated some demos for kz-arg dunno the fucking reason of it but he decided to send a clean demo to xj, 1- he doesnt deserv ban here; 2- the demo should be accepted if its a wr.

    is my problem and my decision what i do in kz-arg with that guy.. he didnt even commited any fault at xj to deserve a ban, not much less get his clean demos rejected.

    Xj staff must have their eyes open and get ready when that guy try to send a demo here, thats all what u have to do.

    my vote is NO.

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  • As I previously stated in the first comment, as per now this should apply only to cosy climbing given the specific relationship and similarities with XJ.

    For other communities, as kyser gave an example with kz-arg, it should be considered in a more moderate and detailed way before taking any action.

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  • It wont matter if its just cosy, nothing is stopping xj from refusing everyone else.. And even if that wont be the case it could also be heavily abused to exclude specific "unwanted" individuals from xj

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  • Yes, you should definitely go for the conspiracy theories...

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  • well, why should you be trusted more than anyone else?

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  • I think it's healthy for the communities to go hand in hand on busting and punishing these cheaters. They are a big issue for serious climbers, and we need to fight them with all means necessary.

    If XJ can see the evidence, I can't understand why they wouldn't go for the kill...

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  • That's a natural response of anyone well intentioned.

    But as far as I can see, some want to draw a line, like there you can cheat, here you cannot. I simply don't understand this approach, taking into consideration that it's the same game, same maps, same player and ESPECIALLY towards the jumpers who work their ass off for a WR.

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  • like you said somewhere yesterday... how many examples are there of guys who cheated in a smaller community, or even cosy, and didnt do it on xj?

    is true that if u cheat once in any community, 99% sure u will cheat somewhere else, so we are talking about 1% of cheaters caught in other communities but had clean demos here..

    the apply of this rule just make no sense since the main concept of it.

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  • I cannot see the reasoning behind your arguments. You are saying that there might be one or two, who would be able to submit records on XJ, but who would want to cheat on other sites. What I'm trying to fathom is, why you would not portray an image of absolute no tolerance towards cheaters. Why communities shouldn't act together in order to clear out the community. I mean, maybe you even deserve the ban from XJ, if you go and post a cheat demo on cosy. I for one would not mind it. Again choosing the zero tolerance policy over the "what if 1 % of x" - We can never account for all factors and as XJ also writes, it would be teaming up with cosy, and not some small national site for up and comers.

    Basically I can not see any reason, why we would hold our hand over someone, who got busted on a site like cosy. I think it's more than fair, to be on the safe side and let every cheater know, that cheating is regarded as a serious crime, through all the communities.

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  • to be more clear, because i can see that you guys think that we allow cheaters just for voting "NO"...

    my point of view is based on my tastes.. i love watching demos... for me, its a wrong decision no not accept a new WR LEGIT DEMO, just because that guy sent a cheated demo on his community or cosy or wathever.. i know is the same game, the same maps, the same every shit like Ovidiu said... but if u look deeper, u are denying a faster record just because other causes, not the demo in fact.

    dont forget the main purpose of xtreme-jumps when it started back in 2003-2004... RECORDS, clean records of course.

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  • Okay, glad your cleared it up, I can definitely see your perspective there. But I still think you overcomplicate it, by what could happen, rather than what is the best outcome for the whole community. Let's say this strict line prevent people from cheating on cosy, suddenly my argument says well yes, we lost 5 cheaters from cosy and your argument says well we have this genuine demo on kz_xxx, so in order to decide what is most important I think we should look to what you say is the purpose of XJ. You say it's about records, I would like to challenge you on that statement.

    The way I see it XJ, is the main provider of premium KZ content, the best of the best. No one is disputing that a record on XJ is the world record. So XJ's main purpose is to provide and maintain a flow of entertainment for the masses. That way to encourage more people to join in on the fun. Let's sum it up, XJ is the main provider of competitive fun in KZ.

    This is the why I think it is crucial, that XJ should also be the main provider of a "safe space" (jesus I'm sounding like one of these feminist assholes) for everyone who competes in records. That is why I would rather have x records less, but more people in trust of the services of XJ and letting in cheaters from other communities contributes to a very untrustworthy provider of content. I guess I'm trying to say that I would rather protect the image of XJ as a guardian of the masses from cheaters rather than a secular part, unhinged from hand in hand combat against cheaters. I'd like XJ to set the example of being WITH the community, rather than against it.

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  • i understand it perfectly.. i think u are right in thinkig that xj is like the mother of every kz community and from here we should show the world like an exemplary community.

    i also got confused in something... the poll is about dont let a cheater join the website, cups, pub servers, etc? or dont let him submit a demo? like i said before, i dont think a caught cheater would try to submit a demo at XJ, the mother of the communities like we describe it when xj staff already know his cheat case...

    anyway, for me is more important a record, is what does motivate people to record, not the person who do it.

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  • The problem you guys fail to see is that CC and XJ (not talking about other communities) are so similar in administration and playerbase (basically the same KZ community just separated in 2 sites) that if you allow a player to submit demos on XJ but he has a ban on CC it's like allowing a player to record on bkz_goldbhop while having cheated demo on bkz_volcanobhop...

    That's the only exception with CC, rest of the communities can be treated as somewhat "different" and specific, but not the same can be applied to CC since they are the other main force of KZ.

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  • this statement about CC and XJ is so outdated, i cringed. Even in it's golden era (2010-2012), CC was full of dudes that didn't get accepted on xj: movies, wrs, mappers, admins ... most of the influential XJ people didn't even visit CC, and they dont do it now either! Stop comparing the two communities, they are nothing the same .. and i've been a mapper,moviemaker,jumper and admin for both. It just isn't the same and thats just your way of seeing it.

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  • In it the past that could have been the case but nowadays the main problem are psyxopat and nikola. Just look for yourself current CEO of cc.

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  • NO. It is useless. It complicates the process. XJ's rules should be applied within XJ. And other communities should run by their rules as well. What matters is cooperation and info sharing between (demo) admins from those different communities. This rule is not needed for that.

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  • Everyone has their own reasons.
    Instead of making decisions in the majority, why don't one of you put yourself in another person's situation?
    Sure, we can change and challenge, make our community great again (as a famous one has said) but if we continue to argue without unity like this poll & the previous, then everything will become more confusing and nothing will change.
    Ovidiu, based on polls i think you should have more decisive choices (i mean the choices of your own). Some will agree, some don't but you are CEO, not the other. So please lead us change and be stronger than ever, bring XJ back as an indispensable coummunity for each of jumper. You have the support of us.

    a YES from me

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  • i don't understand this hard english
    but in the poll writtten *if solid proof is provided*
    then i vote for yes

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  • I voted yes also. The "fear" of being a busted cheater will be bigger so it may lead to reducing new coming cheaters.
    You should definitely consider when the cheated demo in the 3rd party community was submitted. There should be a 2-3 year limit, meaning XJ can't ban someone that cheated 3+ years ago.
    This way the cheater would have the time to actually develop skills and not use cheats anymore.

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  • Yea I agree with that, ofcourse everything should be taken into consideration and a jumper submitting a record on cosy 5 years ago, shouldn't be a life time ban imo.

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  • so do we say 5 years? maybe 4? or 3? another unneeded complication

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  • I also get your point of view kyser. It's logical, a clean WR is a clean WR no matter the source. Simple.

    BUT, a clean WR from a cheater creates plausible deniability. Meaning, you make people doubt of: 1. demo, 2. holder, 3. checker, 4. community. In the eyes of the beholder you insert doubt. Which is very risky. A risk, which in my opinion based on my LONG and DEEP experience, that creates animosity. And it also creates a very dangerous precedent: opening the door to cheaters who think they are smarter than us and can bypass our security.
    And like scary says, why getting in bed with a cheater? I mean after all you do what you feel, I'm not judging you, but I have the right to protect myself, even if it may mean losing a record.

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  • perfectly understandable from you, the CEO... like Scary said, better to lose 1 possible record instead of generating suspicion and future risks.

    i hope we never have to go through this situation

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  • It's a small, really small community. So, while every cheater does impact negatively, there's always a chance that someone might have an enormous positive impact, even if he's a cheater. Lets say radon comes back and submits one cheated demo and one new map (realistic, right?). What happens? Do you ban him? Do you release his map regardless?

    I get it, autobanning cheaters reduces the burden on democheckers. But banning people from the whole site a bit of an overkill. You can restrict demo upload (as long as there was no cheating within xj ecosystem), but you're not alive enough to waste potential resources and potential activity. It literally takes one (banned) person to completely change the tide for your small community.

    And what was it, 1 year without cheating? 2 years? essay? few bl**bs? how do you get a 2nd/3rd/4th chance? Oh yeah, zero tolerance... way to go extinct. Not really, but hopefully you get the point.

    Doubt (mentioned by Dumitru) is a powerful thing indeed. But then again, why do you only talk about demos if you care about doubt and negative impact? If someone on cc wishes death/cancer upon one's family, shouldn't they be banned too? What about excessive trolling? Where's the line that you draw between banning someone based on actions within another community and ignoring it? Is is only cheating that gets you banned?

    See, in a (relatively) perfect world you wouldn't have to even think about it, you can just ban cheated demos fair and square after thorough checking. This situation, however, implies that you're cutting corners. It's a tradeoff, always.

    In the end tho, it's completely admins decision. Most of us don't have near enough contribution/impact/sound consciousness to really voice an opinion or be angry about anything. Admins know best, even when they don't (no sarcasm here). Whatever decision you come to, make it really transparent, so some of us would shut up.

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  • Yes.

    The way I see it, at this point Cosy is already sort of an extension of XJ, so basically it all comes down to this: If you decide to submit cheated demos in Cosy, you better think twice about it and get ready to pay the heavy price for thy pathetic actions if you decide to go with it. Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be a whole permanent ban, but an intruder shall definitely be denied access to submit-demos for an indefinite period of time. The question is, if you are good enough to record clean demos for XJ, why would you bother cheating in Cosy? That's just ridiculous and you should not be doing it. By all means play with cheats however much you like, just don't submit your demos, it's simple as that. Or if you were banned in Cosy for cheating but decided to clean yourself up and eventually with hard work you become good enough to record clean demos for XJ, well then you should probably upload them to Youtube or whatever because you should have known better not to blow it up like that years ago. You should regret your dumb-ass decision for the rest of your life is the point. Or if you submit cheated demos to XJ get busted and banned but then decide to record clean demos for Cosy, well too bad, you should have known better not to submit cheated demos to XJ and just forget about this game for good.
    Now finzer has raised some reasonable concerns regarding the complexity of this process and indeed it could get complex once you decide to consider all the exceptional cases, as well as calculating the pro's and con's but that's what the admins are here for, right? I mean, establishing some kind of equations to measure exact values of each decision. For example, it's pretty hard to say whether the consequences of having cheaters around correlates with skills improvement of individual players or not, or how much inspiration exactly has FoF provided to each individual player, which should then be weighted against how much harm he had costed them as a cheater, then come up with an average and take it all from there, figuring out as objectively as possible whether it would've been better to had him banned much earlier, as eDark could've done, and deprive the community of all the inspiration that came with his controversial achievements, or whether it was the right call to just let him be for the sake of growth, so that players would strive harder to surpass themselves in attempts to compete with him, unaware of his cheating...
    The reason we should care about keeping a high rate of improvement is because we all want to see the limits pushed as far as possible and watch unbelievable demos, but it would only count if it's a clean job. I don't really know about you fellas, but if I see a cheated demo, say 1:25 on goldbhop, or 2:35 on degyptianez, not only I would not enjoy it but in a way it would also turn me off of even trying the map. But if they were to be clean demos I would react in opposite manner.

    Anyway, those sorts of measurements I mentioned above would require some rather strict quantitative approach, and I get it. It would be a lot of work and would lead to no benefits since it is goddamn 1.6 we're talking about here. But it doesn't have to be so complex once you decide to act on principle. I don't really want to get all political but damn, cheaters are repulsive scum and always have been, EVEN when they're not. So they must be discouraged of their annoying attempts at cheating with unscrupulous ferociousness by any means necessary. They are the kind of parasites that would always be looking for that edge, always, to give themselves advantage over others in order to fool them and perhaps it's the thrill of getting away with it that produces a kick, but their motives, whatever they might be, should be as much intolerable in Cosy as in XJ, and they should be facing maximum resistance at any time, otherwise it would be extremely discouraging having to compete with the constant doubt in mind that there is a bunch of cheaters having fun scott-free because nobody gives a shit, the doubt itself is enough to dissolve the pleasure of recording process so I say they have to be hunted and put down like stray mad dogs. You know what they do to a mad dog? They put it down for good.
    Consider also the ironic case in which a cheater is actually dragging himself down skill-wise because of his cheating habits. For example, in order to look less suspicious he would have to make sketchy runs to slow himself down, when he could've actually done better runs without cheats. Not only he would be depriving us of better runs as audience but he would be pissing on the efforts of all the legit players out there. Well, I imagine that would be kind of an exceptionally rare case so perhaps you should not consider it, but what you should consider is the fact that applying this kind of rule to XJ would benefit both XJ and Cosy, when it comes to cheaters, unless ironically enough they become overwhelmingly active and overly motivated as never before to resist against this law enforcement.
    Anyway, those are my two cents and whatever changes you decide to make here in XJ regarding this issue, the rules should go both ways and be applied to Cosy as well.

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  • ^ Well said shNz.


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  • otherwise it would be extremely discouraging having to compete with the constant doubt in mind that there is a bunch of cheaters having fun scott-free because nobody gives a shit, the doubt itself is enough to dissolve the pleasure of recording process so I say they have to be hunted and put down like stray mad dogs.

    This notion is the excact reason why the discouragement will be much bigger than the couragement of x clean demos.

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  • The comment above is from the beautiful ShNz statement...

    Also a classic:

    "Hunt them down like stray dogs" god I love that!

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  • i dont remember a guy who stopped recording or got upset when some cheaters had beaten some records...

    players like bibika, shnz, lewly, etc kept battling lot of maps with VNS, LyNn, when we i think most of us suspected they were cheating...

    did they really get desmotivated because of them?

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  • kyser,

    If you trying to beat WR whole day, whole week, whole months. After those attempts, You achieved only 1milisecond WR.
    But, others (vns, lynn whatever) beat your WR, only 1minut with fu*king cheats.

    Then you lost your motivation.
    Ofcourse, Bibika, lrs, lewly, shNz ... tons of them, dont want to fight cheaterss.

    Peace

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  • Ofcourse you don't remember the guys who stopped recording. Those are the guys we don't see. Those are the guys who gave up, and not the stars of the past and the present. We probably lost a good deal of climbers because of people like LyNn, FoF and the rest of the stray dogs. The damage is often invisible and it would create an atmosphere of more distrust and discomfort in my opinion. Why shouldn't it be punishable to cheat on cosy?

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  • Yeah a lot of times they did, even if they recorded a few demos.

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  • I voted YES but dont think if someone submit cheated demo in cosy for example and get banned and submit clean demo in Xj and get banned again is funny, its okey if his demos is cheated in both sites.. is that simple, BUT for sure the admins all over the communities have to hunt them to the end like shNz said.

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  • yes why not. cheaters destroy the communities and they must pay hard for that

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  • Yes, cheaters should be banned globally. Didn’t you ban LyNn like that already?

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  • yes

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  • ''But...it was just one demo.''
    ''But...he is my friend.''
    ''But...it was just that guy, he never meant any harm.''
    ''But...it was just that map, nobody cares about that map.''
    ''But...it was years ago, I'm sure he's clean now.''
    ''But...it was just on Cosy.''
    ''But...but...but''

    No buts.

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  • yes.......


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